Keel Sump

[FlatlineE32]

The boats are Polyester. We used MAS Epoxy for the extensive rehab of my boat.

Someone can correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the major difference between the Formula and C&C built boats is the core. The Formula boats have foam hull core with balsa decks and the C&C are all balsa. The toe rail on the formula boats is typically raised and the C&C boats had a flat track. The formula boats interior had wood bunks and the C&C had molded fiberglass.

[FastCrab]

OK- I performed my test using a boathook pointer as a measurement of flexibility yesterday.
The goal: To see if this flex is a big worry, or if the keel will be OK to sail till I haul the boat for the season. A quick calculation indicated the pointer should move about 1.047"for each degree of flex laterally, giving me a quantifiable value.

Method: I cut 2 wedges of wood, and used them to wedge said boathook in the bottom of the keel sump, aft of the last floor beam where I could get to it. It needed to not touch anything else, so was extending at an angle sufficient to clear the shaft and the plywood. The boathook was now a valid pointer which should indicate lateral angular movement of the bottom portion of the keel sump with respect to the rest of the hull. The pole was then extended to within 1/2" of the cabin top inside. I put up a #3 and the main and sailed with only 2 crew in about 12-15 Knot slightly gusty NW winds in the Potomac, between Tall Timbers and Ragged Point. The NW wind created a fetch coming down the Potomac, so we had 1.5-2.5 ft waves with the occasional larger (3ft or more) rogue. We sailed an easy close reach up wind and then beat for a time, then reached down, still with the #3. Even in this setup and no rail meat to speak of, the Evelyn achieved a maximum speed of about 7.7 Knots...

Results: the pointer moved 3/16 of an inch, and then only coming back in off a wave, with some extra movement from the boathook's own flexibility. There were some pretty airborne re-entries. We also did some quick maneuvers under power inside the protection of Herring Creek.

Conclusions: It appeared plenty stiff. I am not the least bit afraid to sail this boat until haul-out this year, other than the risk of more delam if there is some. My biggest mistake in this experiment was I had the guy who had just test sailed 'Blown Away', the Maxi 87 boat I am selling, on board- he now realizes he may want a faster boat...!

[admin]

Is "Blown Away" the old Maxi on the hard up here at Tidewater?

[FastCrab]

No. Blown Away is still in the water at Tall Timbers marina. It's 8.7 meters, or 28.5 ft. LOA.

[FastCrab]

OK, back on topic- I attended the 'Kennedy Cup' at the Naval Academy in Annapolis yesterday. The SMCM Offshore club team was racing Navy 44's. These things weigh 30,000 lbs, they're fast but don't accelerate too well. One of the midshipmen told me the Navy 44's were designed to run aground at full speed without damage. I found a strong stainless fitting bolted to the cabin roof, with a turn-buckled rod rig extending down to the front of the keel. Sounds like a good way for the Evelyn to distribute grounding loads on the deck and hull simultaneously, too. It could be fastened directly to the forward keel bolt immediately behind the mast, and could be a tube so it provided compression for deck loads too.

[FlatlineE32]

Serious? I would strongly dicourage running an E32 aground. They are not built at all like a Navy 44.

[FastCrab]

LOL!

Anyone in their right mind would/should advise not running aground, but my marina has juuust enough water for the Evelyn, occasionally i will softly 'run aground' on a low tide coming in or going out, but slowly in a a soft sand bar that insists on popping up in the channel near the beach line. The concept is to not load the sump as much by spreading the load to the deck is all....and I do try to leave with 'enough' tide.

I won't know the whole story on the sump until I pull the boat. There hopefully there is yet one more Frostbite in the season for me this Saturday, 20 November!

[FastCrab]

And certainly NOTHING is built like a Navy 44!

[Renegade]

Having completely dismantled one of these boats, including taking the keel off and cutting out the sump, I'm happy to be a resource to others. I think lot of people underestimate the magnitude of the engineering shortcomings of the original construction. The balsa-cored keel pans on the C&C boats are highly vulnerable to rot and delamination. Balsa never should have been used in this area. The fiberglass layers in the walls of the sump also tend to come apart over time as the pan loses its integrity and the keel starts to pendulum. Adding to the problem is the fact that the sump and keel are radically thin. When I took core samples of my sump after removing it, the laminate had clearly split in two at the center.
All of this can be fixed and the original keel reinstalled, but it's an immense undertaking. A strong, lasting repair may well involve complete removal of some 25 square feet of cored composite construction and replacing it with solid epoxy/biax. Like me, you will want to remove the keel as a first step. I did the whole job a year ago, so yes it's possible. This note is just to alert you that the cure to your keel issues might be far more extreme than you imagined. Tabbing in bigger stringers and the like won't cure the problems if the underlying sandwich has been compromised. I can tell you that the sandwich wasn't made very well to begin with. I found lots of resin-starved uni-di and a completely useless, ridiculously thin and totally dry layer of primitive carbon uni-di.
My comments here also have bearing on the discussions about rebuilding the crappy original mast step. The substrate underneath my mast step was rotted even worse than the step itself. And so you could install a nice new bullet-proof mast step and still wind up with a sloppy rig - a problem which will further compound if you haven't upgraded the chain plate bulkheads. I do love the design; it was way ahead of its time. But these boats were slapped together quick and cheap. That's part of why only 57 were ever sold. Whenever something appears suspect on the surface, I always keep in mind that it could be just the tip of an iceberg.

[Intensity]

after our mid season temporary stringer beefing of the keel, we are now on the trailer and permanently stiffening the keel. Somewhere I thought I saw a pic of a keel with the prop shaft beefed up at the keel exit. Now I can't fine it. If someone knows of this pic or has the boat, could you send this to me. Thanks to everyone that has contributed to this post I feel we are going into this project very well educated. Hopefully we'll be out racing by March/April.

Scotty Butcher
Intensity
US 25030

[FastCrab]

I have finally received the title and documented vessel info to get my boat back in operation, and began more forensics on the keel sump. I did a lot of cleaning, and rebuilt the rotten floors around the motor box on 'Zing!arella'. The enclosed probably looks very familiar to you all.

[FastCrab]

Photo of 'Zing!arella's interior currently, after a weekend of cleaning and interior refurb.. The bulkheads were upgraded previously, maybe not as stiff as some but it looks to be Divynicell cored composite with a fairly beefy looking laminate schedule. The mast step looks horrible, it has been drilled on the top with big holes and filled somehow- I'm not sure what is going on there but it can't be good. Next step is to drill it to get some core material samples.

Definitely scaring me with the Balsa cored concept- my interior flexibility test won't be very conclusive if this thing is cored and that is breaking down. The boat is still in the water because the transfer of ownership did not occur until now and I was afraid if the laminates were all wet, being out of the water over the winter would virtually guarantee freeze/thaw damage to the laminates. Interior laminates don't look bad at all once I cleaned up all the black diesel goo... but as yet I still haven't seen the outside.

[FastCrab]

After hauling, cleaning, inspecting, then re-bottom painting I am pleased to report there is another season left in the keel on 'Zingarella'! Yes, it has some problems as reported in the survey, but structurally it is still sound. After hauling this fall I will begin a program of full restoration.