Keel and rudder upgrades

[peter ross]

I know this subject has been tossed around a bit in the last couple of years.
There are a couple of Evelyn owners who have approached me for input.
I am extremely pigheaded about this subject and simply cannot give them the input they are looking for. This seems like a safer place to toss some ideas around.
What have you guys with the newer keels done to attatch them?
Did you use the same "footprint?," as in using the molded sump, or was the sump removed to allow for a smaller cord length?
I am seeing design fees that approch build costs. Actually saw one design quote that was more expensive than the designer's complete boat design, which included the blades.
I don't know if any of you guys have talked with these interested persons, but I simply am without thoughtful directive advice beyond my own opinions regarding these boats.

What kind of PHRF hits are expected ( I know regions differ ) and what would anyone consider acceptable hits.
I do have a plan for my own boat, but cannot support the shapes with engineering goo. I can only rely on seat of the pants and the success of one heavily modified plywood boat with no similarities in hull form.

I am worried about a couple of things as an owner and builder. I know my boat is worthless at this point and can no longer be considered an Evelyn 25 ( gots some other thoughts on the benefits of that hit too ,) but I have the materials and am more curious than anything else. I don't expect a return on the end result, etc. But as a builder, I am not so willing to take a significant amount of money modifying a boat for a customer, if it is going to kill the boats value, with limited performance gains due to a huge slap from phrf. There is going to have to be a common ground soon, since new boats may be a few years out given the current state of affairs and more of these keel'rudder mods are going to pop up.
Gnat, as a poor example saw an amazing performance increase and actually sailed beyond a huge rating hit for a sprit and code zero, it NEVER had installed.

Any thoughts? Or a direction these guys can head for a package design deal. I won't quote what I read, but the message was a 40ft keel/rudder design was the same effort as a 25.............hmmm, so much to add to the thoughts there. I guess I read that as all the boats, 25, 32.2 and 42 share the same exact design fees. Maybe a large package design deal, IF a common designer can be found.

Hope this isn't too hot a topic, I am eager to hear some responses.

[dragonfly]

I'm considering a keel retrofit to an E-32-2. Not so much worried about a hit. Does anybody have a drawing/measurements? The guy I'm talking to at Mars is adament that they need to know the root cord length, tip cord length and keel height. To keep the cost down I'm asking them to recommend a stock design that's close, but need not be perfect.
-Dragonfly

[admin]

Peter, not quite sure what you are after, exactly, but if it's a spec'ed out design brief on what kinds of loads a turbo'ed keel would impart on the hull and how someone would go about beefing up the boat to accomodate the new keel configuration (lowered CG, lowered COE, elevated mechanical advantage trying to rip the damn thing off under dynamic loading conditions, etc.) then I think probably the guy to go to would be......YOU!

Again, I'm not sure what your question is, but I think the idea of a turbo'ed Evelyn (whether it be a 42, 32-2, 26, or 25) is pretty compelling. There's an Olson 30 down here on the bay (not sure if it's racing yet) that has been turbo'ed--they put a shorter chord keel foil on it with a bulb and I was wondering what they've done to beef up the keel attachment..."formerVE32-2owner" might know, maybe he'll chime in.

As far as the rating penalty, it could be significant, but the boat would be a blast to sail, so what the hell, if it continues to suffer under PHRFNE, apply for a rating adjustment after 2 years.

With the way the economy has become, and with new boats being (in my opinion) insanely expensive, putting a lot less money into a NACA foil with a bulb at the bottom, beefing up the attachment somewhat (which I think should be done anyway), adding a carbo rig and PBO standing rigging could get you what feels and sails like a new boat for a fraction of what a Sunfast 3200 or a Flying Tiger or an Annapolis 30 is going to cost.

[admin]

Here's a pic of the way the Olson 30's keel support was beefed up for their conversion to a short chord foil/bulb keel.

http://www.nbayracing.com/carrot.htm

(ignore the carrot stuff)

They may have beefed up the keel support but that starboard weeping chainplate is the weak link in this particular equation!!!

(thanks to "formerVE32owner" for the photo)

[dragonfly]

Wow, thanks for the quick response! I know why owners love these boats. They were not engineered ruggedly, but the concept and design were light years ahead of their time. We are on the same page completely relative to your comments about upgrades. Yes, I even am getting quotes on a carbon spar. But the first thing is to consider the foils. Mars wants to run the numbers and make some recommendations. But they say they need some basic dimensions for the stock keel as a starting point. Now that they have explained it, it seems reasonable. So I'm looking for some drawings or another source that gives the keel height, root cord length and tip cord length. Based on a design weight of 2,000 pounds, this will allow their design team to calculate things like COG and righting moment. They will try to duplicate those parameters but with NACA strut and deep bulb. They know that the new keel will be somewhat lighter and maybe not as deep. But I'm hoping to give them some original design info as a baseline. I wish I had taken these measurement when I went to Toronto last week to look at two boats for sale. We don't have an E 32-2 here in Milwaukee. Whatever I discover would be shared with all users, because this looks to me like a great upgrade. It will be a lot of work but is not that complicated. It will result in a faster and safer keel, compared to the original design with the narrow, flimsy sump and inline attachment bolts. That just wouldn't work for us because we sail offshore into hell and high water. I want to be confident that the boat can take whatever Lake Michigan throws at us. I envision the new keel as being welded to a base plate that fits into a recess and has seven or eight rows of transverse keel bolts. The hull would be reinforced by removing two to three feet of core to either side of the attachment recess. Biax mat would be layered on generously. On top of that, transverse structural ribs would be fabricated and bonded with epoxy and carbon tapes. The keel ribs would be tied to secondary structural ribs running transversely all the way up to the gunwales. While some would say this plan is overkill, it will result in a super stiff mid section, addressing one of the boat's major engineering shortcomings. As built, the soft mid permits severe torquing that is exacerbated by under-designed aft-quarter bulkheads. This is what causes all the deck crazing and delam we see on the side decks just aft of the cabin house. The problem gets really bad, I suspect, if in addition water leaches in through improperly bedded winch base bolts.
-Dragonfly

[admin]

Dragonfly, why not go straight to the source? Bob Evelyn has been on board E32-2 "Bluto" for both Charleston Race Week and NYYC RW at Newport...maybe Ben Hall or John Fries ("Remedy") can put you in touch with Bob? You can contact John at UK/Halsey mystic and Bell Hall at Hall Spars, Bristol RI. From what John says, Bob has been having a great time racing back on board the boat(s) he designed and it sounds like he might be psyched enough to send you some data (although from past experience, I know that some designers are loathe to suggest, comment on or even consider the idea of turbo'ing one of their designs ;-)
email me at webwolf@nbayracing.com if you are having any problems finding adresses, etc...I may have some that would be helpful.

[gfornal]

I have already been intouch with John Fries and he is going to contact Bob about a new keel design for John's Evelyn 26 and is going to ask about the 25 for me.

If my boat does not sell then I will be looking to move to the route with my boat. I knwo another E25 owner is also seriously thinking about it also. So it sounds like we have 3- 4 people interested in a new keel for 3 different designs. (25, 26, 32)

I have contact a few Naval designers, but only 1 has returned a quote.

John Fries should have all the measurements you need for the 32.

[dragonfly]

Gfornal, this sounds fantastic. Maybe I am crazy, but the more I have been thinking this project through, the less daunting it appears. I would want to journal it and document it for others' benefit.
-Dragonfly

[peter ross]

Tim,
Greg and dragonfly have sort of answered what I am trying to say. I can show several examples of keel support etc., but it will take a few days to scan and upload to my site.
There are several issues to deal with and or consider with the entire project.
Let me first do something I've never done before, give a brief background of my early experience with these boats.
I remember seeing Seldom Scene on Rt 184 in Old Mystic, it had just been built by the Boat Company of Mystic. It was one very cool looking boat. I went to work at the Boat Co., during that time being involved in two Cook One Tons, Posey 36, and an Evelyn 32. Bought my own Kirby Mini Ton that was an incomplete kit. The Evelyn was a molded hull, with a deck built off a constant camber female "dish." The cabin was a third part that was a pain in the ass to install, tab and fair.
All the Boat Co. boats were quick and dirty boats I would think twice about sailing on. The 26's were built at the Rossi Mill at the Mystic Seaport, mostly by early Mudheads. The Boat Co folded and the remainder of the workers (not me) went to work for Formula. The quick and dirty method of building boats was refined but still the same slam bam building methods, but using Vinylester resins instead of polyester.
While building two Ultimate 30's in '88, Bob told me his workers were safer because they were using vinylester and we were killing ourselves with our very dangerous epoxy resins. I built the Cape Fear 38, reluctantly, with a blended vinylester resin. I became one extremely ill and angry builder whienever around that crud. Definately a great resin for blisters and performance power boats, where flexability is key. Using it in performance sailboats, IMHO, is counter productive. The stuff never really cures hard like a good iso polyester resin. I prefer a blended vinylester/poly resin for the hardness, but this is all my opinion, based on observation and eperience.
They were built right for the times and I dought thoughts of twenty some odd years down the line not an issue. My hull is plently solid, I just need to keep some of the issues in mind when tabbing and structure etc.
The boat I own is all vinylester. It had a balsa cored deck and transom. The hull, mast step liner are airex cored. Well the mast step WAS cored, it's gone now. One of the other 25's I saw actually has a balsa cored liner the mast step sat on. BALSA! Most should make certain their masts aren't compressing this panel, resulting in loose rigging. 25 Mast sits on a panel, bridging two glassed over 2x4's, a solid trampoline.
The liners:....................Get rid of them! They may appear to be part structure, part liner, but they are not any longer. They used some sort of shop putty as a core bond for everything..........everything! The rudder is built with this goop, the liners are bonded with it, even used as hull core bond on mine. One of the big problems is the putty will fail if water gets into it, which seems fairly easy. I found the first signs of unkicked goo in my rudder, the blade spun right off the decaying aluminum post.
You could pull the lifeline stanchons to the cabin with ease. Most of the reason being the rotted core, but I the glass had gotten soft as well. I took the rails off, rebedded the hull deck flange and the boat STILL leaked water onto the cabin sole. Turned out it was just draining out of the saturated deck. I grabbed the sawzall and started cutting. The liner was no longer attatched to the cabin house, hardware held it in place. I could barely pick up any section bigger than 4x6 it was so saturated.
The liner's putty had totally failed and what remained was a black sticky goo ( The cutout for Greg's single point lift revealed unkicked bonding putty. Still blue, but no longer doing it's job. ) Seeing the same nobond made it an easy decision to remove everything in the boat and start over.
I intend to cut the sump off and install a similar keel to Gnat's, built into an internal socket. It isn't such a hard job starting fresh, but a much bigger challenge modifying the unmolested boats.
I think the issues the need to be addressed are attatchment plans, use of existing structure and furniture and upgrading the weak points. The boats are not stiff and it is alot of work to correct that, really critical if you are trying to add stability by putting all that weight down low. You need to make certain the new structure supports the new keel without relying on the cored hull and it's flexible resin. The loads need to be spread as far and wide as possible.

In trying to redefine my question, I tend to be more seat of the pants and have a thought on depth and weight of my keel. I can't support it with any numbers, just what "looks" right. If I'm off, it will most likely be on the heavy side, but the first fix is less crew. If that doesn't work, I'll remove some lead. The problem is taking the lead off a part of the bulb that still allows this keel type to twist off. I would hate to sell a customer on a shot in the dark, while it may not be quite that extreme, it is a concern.
Read what Bob Perry had to say in the keel swap thread on SA. It really is a guessing game for most. But I am sure someone can come up with something closer to a defined answer on shade, depth and weight that will satisfy..........
The boats would need to be digitized first I bet. Not worth that cost.

Changing keels isn't for everyone, certainly a huge expense beyond the keel itself, but the newfound stability ( sure hope there is some of that ) will make the boat(s) more fun in heavy weather. Shoot, maybe in moderate weather the family will enjoy it more.

[dragonfly]

Peter, thanks for all of this. One of the boats I am considering probably needs a complete re-recore. In a way that's good because you're right - the new keel grid can't rest on top of foam core. It has to be made integral to the reiforced laminate. You seem to be saying that the Formula E-32s, at least, were built with Vinylester. Right? For the rebuild I would use epoxy and Core-Cel. Shear/tear I know isn't as good as balsa, but it has much lower moisture content and will not soak up tons of resin. Also it's readily thermoformable. No need to fill in the voids between all those little blocks, although the sheets do need to be perforated to let air escape as they're pressed or vacced into place.
-Dragonfly

[peter ross]

Dragonfly,
I was mostly referring to the 25's and I suppose those boats built by Formula, I'm not certain what C&C used.
Epoxy most definately the resin of choice for this, although vinylester would work fine but should be gelcoated.
As the structure goes, I am all for solid centerlines or at least in the keel area, but the grid can include the bunkfronts and sit on the cored laminate. You don't want to interfere with those limited fibers. The more uninterupted, continuous fibers, the better. I was trying to say that the loads need to be absorbed by the structure and not the cored laminate. As far as foam core goes, no problem at all, but you should fill the knife cut grooves, it won't take much to do. When I'm coring large projects, I have a large barrel I lay on it's side that I lay the core over for buttering. This opens the kerfs enough to quickly wet out. Once I make a quick butter spread, I turn the panel 90 degrees and make another pass to hit all the grooves. One of those blue barrels works great or use a large garbage can.
I need to get back to the shed, but will add to this later tonight. I have some thoughts on your "strut" and attatchment. Also some methods for creating the strut and some good vendors to use to get to a cheaper keel, including a method I use to create some ultra stiff blades. I like some of the things Phil's Foils has to offer, but have a friend with a cnc machine closer and in the states to use as well. I don't build carved blades but these guys do and I like their stuff ( as carved foam and wood goes. )
As promised, plenty of photos and options to come.

[dragonfly]

You obviously know your stuff! Question, though, about knife-cut Corecell. I have used your method very successfully when re-coring with balsa. But it seems to require added resin and filler (more weight). And I read a paper suggesting diminished tear resistance and rigidity. The alternative would be to use flat sheet Corecell and heat-form it. But if it is heat formed to contour to the existing outer skin, will the old laminate be physically compromised? I understand that I would need to drill puncture holes to allow air and excess resin to evacuate. The sheets would be vacuum bagged in place. The foam would be .5 inch, with two layers in high-stress areas such as the bow. (This is because I hear that 1 inch is pretty hard to form. I would use a regulated heat gun.) For a new inside skin I was thinking two biax layers and a top skin of carbin/kevlar composite. One of my best friends is a marine professional who had a custom keel built for his Mount Gay 30. He ended up not going with Mars because they priced the job 20 percent higher than the other bids. But I know they are a very reputable company and that they offer design consultation in addition to fabrication.
-Dragonfly

[musicman]

I would not change the keel on a 32, there is no reason to mess with it. The boats (if well set up) can easily sail to their rating against just about anything out there. They are excellent upwind with the stock keel.
The thing I would change though is the rudder, it's WAY too big (and heavy at 65 lbs).
Peter, you should offer a rudder upgrade package for 32's.
I know the old Joyride (now Bloody Hell) has a new rudder & Bluto does as well, both are in the 20-30 lb range.

[admin]

hey John, did BLUTO put a new rig on? I cant tell from the photos, except that it doesn't look like my old rig with its barely bent boom....

[musicman]

They had the stock rig & a new boom for the oversize E main (very similar to what I've had for the past 2 seasons).

From talking to Bob they are putting a Carbon rig in this year. I'm not so sure it's the way to go rating wise unless you're in a very windy area...We'll see though.

The stock 32 boom is a joke & should be replaced. If you put any real vang tension on downwind in heavy air you'll bend the hell out of it.
Our new boom is Carbon built at the same lbs/foot as the stock one as to avoid a rating hit. Make a big difference in breeze.